Rogue Learner: What's Missing in Our Current School System, Deschooling, and a Future Without College

What's Missing in Our Current School System, Deschooling, and a Future Without College

Jun 2, 2021

Guest:

Zak Slayback

Author published at McGraw-Hill; former research fellow at the University of Pennsylvania; principal at 1517 Fund, a VC firm spun out of the Thiel Fellowship. Zak is a career & communications expert whose content has been highlighted or featured in Fast Company, Business Insider, The Muse, Newsweek, and the New York Observer. He was an early team member at the startup apprenticeship company Praxis, where he was charged with recruiting new business partners and placing apprentices. He left the University of Pennsylvania in 2014 after pursuing a major in Philosophy.

twitter: @zslayback

personal site: zakslayback.com

clubhouse: @slayback

Show Notes:

Zak Slaybach started the Deschool Yourself project with his co-host Jeff Till. They talked with a handful of people who had experience with education in k-12 and higher education. Zak’s interest in doing the podcast came from his unique experience of working with young adults from different backgrounds and placing them in jobs that required degrees, although these young people didn't have degrees. He noticed a trend where the people who had the most training and academic backgrounds were least prepared for the jobs they were placed in. It was a narrative violation because he’d expected that the best performers in school who’d been accepted to elite colleges would have the best self-governing and organization skills, but in fact that wasn’t the case for the majority of the people he worked with.

The pattern which unfolded was that unschooled or homeschooled people were far more capable at self-directing in their jobs, and he found himself seeking them out. It also made him curious about the link between homeschooling and successful job placement. Zak started researching the history of education and how children learn. He named Peter Gray and John Taylor Gatto’s writings as being most helpful.

He remembers one particular experience where he spoke with the CEO of a company where he was trying to place young adults without degrees in jobs at the company. The job description in the job advertisement said “degree or equivalent work experience required” and he asked the CEO what he meant by that. The CEO said equivalent work experience meant just a semester of work experience, so 4-6 months. He explicitly told Zak that someone would learn more about the business by spending time in the company than they would at university. The degree is nothing more than a filter. It is not a leading indicator of a good hire.

Jenna asks Zak why his company only hires degreeless adults. Zak explains that he worked for the Peter Thiel Fellowship which gives away $100,000 to young adults with new business ideas to start a company rather than going to college. There’s a line in Peter Thiel’s book, “Zero to One” that reads elite students climb confidently until they reach competition sufficiently intense enough to beat their dreams out of them.

Jenna actually recalls when her daughter was preschool-aged, she was an amazing artist who did art because it was fun and she enjoyed the process so much. As soon as she entered the school system and began comparing her work to her peers, she stopped producing art and lost her individuality because she thought other people’s work was better than hers.

Zak adds that hyper-competition leads to people not pursuing their ideas and/or copying each other. Some of young people who were selected for this fellowship have gone on to develop things like Figma, OYO Rooms, Ethereum, Longevity Fund, and Luminar.

Jenna asks Zak about gatekeepers in the US being less prolific than in Europe. From her experience living in Europe, it still seems imperative for companies that young people get college degrees. Zak agrees that it’s used as a filtering mechanism for companies to weed through applicants. He doesn’t think it’s been all that successful for Europe though in producing innovative tech companies, with the exception of Spotify which was developed in Sweden. He points out that goals for US companies vary from European countries in that US companies are always striving for growth, whereas European companies are all about keeping pace and business sustainability.

Switching gears, Jenna asks Zak about his book “The End of School.” Zak explains that the book actually started as a personal challenge to write every day, once a day, for thirty days. That turned into a longer three month challenge. He says you naturally begin writing about the things that are on your mind at the time. He encourages people with knowledge and new perspectives to not be afraid to write about what they learn and not to self-censor too much. Jenna adds that this project is a perfect example really of how self-directed learning works, following your interests. That’s actually how the Rogue Learner podcast was born.

Zak talks about some of the problems he sees in traditional schools. He starts with talking about what he calls “the schooled mindset” which means students are looking at life in levels. They are essentially leveling up in life, yet each level does not promise anything “better.” He refers to Nathaniel Brandon who asserts that it’s not the achievement of a goal that makes people fulfilled, it’s the progress toward the achievement of meaningful goals. School has us reaching toward goals, but not meaningful ones. For example, we set goals in school like; land this job, get this promotion, pass this class, get that ‘A’ on the test. Jenna points out that a lot of the goals students are trying to achieve are set out by their parents as well. And to some degree, Zak points out that this comes from the pressure in our society where children’s success in life reflects back on their parents.

We’ve reached a point for the first time in society where two generations have been thoroughly schooled. Parents are expecting their kids to live better lives than themselves, but the metrics for which we measure “better lives” isn’t based on overall well being, life expectancy, etc., rather it’s primarily based on how credentialed they are. More credentials does not equate to better or more fulfilling lives, unfortunately.

Jenna adds that there is a lot of wasted time in school and it comes from the idea that we all learn in a linear fashion, which isn’t the case. There’s no expiration date for when a person can learn something. Zak feels as though he was able to become educated in spite of schooling not because of it.

Jenna mentions how the most engaged and curious students in her classroom most often were those kids who had access to diverse experiences and people in their home lives. The kids who went places on the weekends and enjoyed board games with grandparents on the weekend were the students who most enjoyed learning. With homeschooling, she feels that “the weekend” can be possible everyday. You can mix with various age groups, go to interesting places and spend time with your loved ones every single day if you want.

Zak says if he were given the choice between hiring a student who attended a magnet school and participated in a variety school-based extracurriculars vs. a homeschooled student who’d worked at Chick- Fila, he’d likely choose the latter. He adds that the reason is they would likely have the required soft skills necessary for their work. Jenna mentions how the soft skills are easier to acquire when you’re interacting daily with adults of all ages from varying backgrounds and experience levels, whereas in school you’ll likely only get the chance to talk with teachers in a top-down, authoritative situation. The teacher has a lot of control over the conversation in the classroom.

On the topic of socialization and diversity, Jenna says she finds it tragic that in most cases students are lumped together by zip code because it prohibits us from mixing with different races and socioeconomic classes than our own. In home education groups however, we are meeting with families from all different cultures and backgrounds from all over the county. The argument that combining disparate zip codes within a school district allows for diversity misses the reality that segregation still naturally occurs within the school itself. Zak says removing the geographical association with schools would be the best way to go forward, however it would generate an immense amount of pushback from teacher’s unions and property owners. Jenna states that school systems can’t truly be equal when they are geographically appropriated because the wealthier families will always have a leg up by being able to move to the more desired school districts. Zak adds that the argument that home education is expensive may not be as valid as families think when you consider the price for living in a “good school district.” Plus there are so many free resources available and even options for parents who both work full time.

Jenna asks, what are some ways parents can deschool, particularly those who want to trust in self-directed learning but find it challenging because of their schooled mindset? When a child begins to develop a curiosity and pursue it, deschooling has reached its end. Peter Gray’s work was transformation in bringing a language to this concept for Zak. Zak has seen most success in families where the parents have guardrails in place which allow students to access their interests by imploring them to use their own skills or money to access it, while also providing numerous opportunities for them to absorb information about their interests. An example of this would be Lenore Skenazy’s story from the Let Grow organization, who let her kid ride the subway home in New York and was dubbed America’s worst mom. Deschooling is hard sometimes, but be patient with yourself and your child.

Jenna asks what is the best way to prepare young adults for the ever-changing workplace? Zak says as many apprenticeships or mentoring opportunities as possible. Turn to hiring managers in the field you want to pursue for feedback on skills and requirements your students should be acquiring. Young adults should get really good at cold emailing people. You can sign up for Zak’s masterclass to learn how to write professional emails. Finding out how you can add value to the company and explicitly telling the hiring manager that, will help the company place you and give them an incentive to let you intern with them. You can find out what skills would add value to the company by doing a bit of homework in advance and acquiring those specific skills beforehand.